A Theological Conversation that Matters: Majoring on the Majors.
My dear Siestas! I would have written sooner, but I’ve just now finished reading all of your answers to my post a few weeks ago, “Talk to me.” Kidding. But for real y'all, I opened up a very glorious can of worms in that there post, didn’t I? For those of you who missed it, I asked everyone to answer two questions: 1) What biblical/theological/doctrinal issue(s) do you wish you were more educated about? 2) What biblical/theological/doctrinal issue(s) are you tired of hearing people bicker about? I was so delighted to learn that I am not the only chic on the blog-block who loves to talk all things theology. If you remain interested in these more technical discussions, then I will continue to respond every several weeks to your comments as in depth as I can without boring you to absolute tears. While I honestly don’t want to waste my hours working on posts that will be “too dry” or “too heady”, I also don’t want to under evaluate your desire to discuss theological issues. It would not be cool for the LPM blog to be part of promoting the long-standing reputation that women just don’t care about discussing theology. Can't stomach the thought.
Now, if you read through the comments you probably gleaned the same thing I did: most of us are completely gorged by excessive arguments about church music preferences and minute details of the five points of Calvinism but have very little knowledge about the Trinity. This is telling but unsurprising because as many of you pointed out we often major on the minors and minor on the majors. And in terms of Christian theology it certainly doesn’t get much more “major” than the Trinity. Just the other day I when I was doing some personal reading I came across this paragraph:
“Every good answer to every question about God’s character appeals to God as Triune…My claim is no overstatement; it is an axiom of Christian faith. It is a theological rule the church has followed so we will not forget nor distort what we know of God in Jesus Christ, and so our knowledge of God in Jesus Christ will inform everything else we know and want to know better. Trinitarianism makes explicit the whole structure of Christian thought, which since its beginning has imitated and radicalized 'the three structures of the Jewish understanding of God' in light of Jesus Christ. It is neither a generalization nor a speculative exercise. It is our way to honor Christ’s memory and follow in his footsteps” Telford Work, Ain’t Too Proud to Beg: Living through the Lord’s Prayer (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, p 16).
Turned out I was doing a theological read concerned with the Trinity the very same day I was reading through your comments. It got me all jazzed up to want to post about the Trinity. But to be honest, I didn’t feel qualified to do it justice. The bulk of my training is in biblical studies and biblical languages and the peeps who usually exposit the doctrine of the Trinity the best not only have biblical training but are also church historians or systematic theology buffs. So, I immediately wrote a former theology professor of mine from Moody Bible Institute and begged and pleaded for his help. He is one of very few people I know who speaks in Trinitarian language regularly and in a way that us common-people can actually understand.
Dr. Bryan Litfin is not just a former professor of mine, but he is truly a friend. It took me a long time to consider him as such because after all, he is a specialist in Patristics and has written articles like, "Tertullian's Exegetical Use of the Regula Fidei as an Interpretive Device in Adversus Marcionem." Studia Patristica (2006). Dr. Litfin did his doctoral studies at University of Virginia and had the incredible opportunity to work under Robert Louis Wilken, one of the most distinguished professors of early christian studies in the field. How the heck are you supposed to be “friends” with a dork, oops, I mean a guy like that? Dr. Litfin’s teaching really resonated with me from the beginning, partly because he knows what it is like to grow up under quite a bit of pressure. His father is the President of Wheaton College and is a legendary preaching machine well known throughout the evangelical seminary world. I remember Dr. Litfin telling a small group of us a hilarious story about when he was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary and he had to preach in the same department where his father taught and had been given a hallowed preaching nickname. It’s brutal for me just thinking about it. I figured if he could live up to that kind of pressure, I could handle some of the pressure I live with as well. It was also Dr. Litfin’s respect for his father and his respect for Wheaton College that drew me to do my Master’s in Biblical Exegesis at Wheaton Grad School. Those two years turned out to be two of the best years of my life. To make things even more exciting, Dr. Litfin’s wife Carolyn is a siesta! She is an incognito one most of the time but she reads the blog often and is always such an encouragement to me. She is my very favorite kind of woman - she not only loves the Lord with all of her heart but she also is an amazing cook and has a huge passion for Scripture. And she is so classy! They are a great pair, see them for yourself:
There is really no overstating how much the Litfin family means to me and there is no doubt that you will be hearing about them again, especially because Dr. Litfin has an exciting book coming out April of next year but we will save that news for another time. It deserves its own post. So that is enough by way of introduction. I hope you’ll read the post all the way through, maybe even twice. Here it is:
If there’s one thing I’ve observed about the siestas, it’s that they love the Bible. And no one can claim to be biblical without understanding the doctrine of the Trinity. Let’s talk a little bit about this famous doctrine that we all know we should believe, yet have a hard time grasping.
The Christians of Bible times worshiped Jesus as their divine Lord. They agreed with Thomas when he encountered the risen Christ and exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) Jesus himself made the kinds of claims only a divine person can make, and his followers accepted his testimony that he is “one with the Father.” (John 10:30) But if you think about it, this is a hard thing to accept in a Jewish context. Remember what Deuteronomy 6:4 had said? “Hear o Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” The first Christians lived with a certain level of tension. They worshiped the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as God, yet they claimed to be monotheists. They didn’t try to figure out how both could be true at once.
Soon, however, people in the Roman Empire began to address this problem. They didn’t always get it right, and we call the erroneous views that cropped up, “heresies.” One heretical view taught that Jesus was simply a different manifestation of the same God who was previously known as the Father. In other words, God the Father now reveals himself as God the Son, but they’re actually the same guy. You can see how this concept, called “modalism” by theologians today, preserves the “oneness” of God. However, we must ask with skepticism in our voices: Is Jesus Christ just God the Father in a different outfit? No, that can’t be right. The early church fathers scrapped the modalistic idea as quickly as it popped up.
In the year 318 AD in Egypt, the senior pastor of the church at Alexandria held the view that Christ is eternal because he shares the same divine existence as the Father. However, one of the assistant pastors in Alexandria, named Arius, disagreed. To him, this smacked of modalism: it made Christ and the Father into the same being. Arius confronted his pastor (or bishop) and said Christ cannot be eternal. Only the Father is eternal, argued Arius. Therefore, Christ must have been created by God at a point in time. Arius claimed, “God existed when Christ did not.” You can see immediately this is just plain wrong. Today we call it the Arian heresy. But it made sense to a lot of people in ancient times. They viewed the Father as eternal, and said he created Christ as his helper.
The Arian heresy spread and became a huge divisive issue. The ancient church needed to define its views on the matter, so a council was called in 325 AD at a town called Nicaea. (It’s pronounced “Ny-SEE-uh, and today it’s known as Iznik, Turkey.) At the Council of Nicaea, the church rejected Arius’s view. The early church fathers defined the important Trinitarian terms of “person” and “substance,” which are the same terms evangelical Christians consider orthodox today. I teach this doctrine every semester in my theology class at Moody. The view held in the “Nicene Creed” produced by the council is that Christ and the Father have the “same substance.” In Greek, the term is homoousios, and sometimes you see that important word in books about the Trinity.
But if we say the Father and Son have the same substance – that they are both eternal and neither is created by the other – have we slipped into modalism? In other words, have we made God the Father and God the Son into the same being? Absolutely not. The theology of Nicaea uses the term “person” to distinguish them. God the Father is one Person, and God the Son is another. They share the same substance, but not the same personhood. For example, think of Beth, Melissa, and Amanda. They each share the substance of being a woman, yet each is distinct as a person. So it is with the Trinity: the shared substance is divine, but the persons are distinct.
In the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, Arianism did not go away, but managed to hang around due to political considerations in the Roman Empire. Fortunately, several church fathers rose up to defend the ideas of Nicaea. The most famous defender was Athanasius, who went on to become the senior pastor of the Alexandrian church. Thanks to Athanasius’s tireless work, which often put him at odds with the Roman emperors who preferred Arianism, the true view of the Trinity (Nicene Trinitarianism) finally triumphed. Several thinkers also extended the theology that had originally applied to the Father and Son to the Holy Spirit as well. The initial debate had centered on the question of Jesus’ relationship to the Father, but everyone knew you were supposed to baptize in the threefold name of Father, Son, and Spirit. (Matthew 28:19) After the original council in 325 AD, a more secure theology was put in place by the church fathers, so that the Holy Spirit was clearly included as divine. The upshot is this: each member of the Trinity is a distinct “person,” yet they share one “substance.” That is the mark of the true doctrine of the Trinity: 3 co-eternal persons, 1 shared substance. Don’t follow anybody who tries to teach you otherwise!
What does all this mean for the busy siesta in 2009? There are several big-time implications of the Trinity. First, we see that the full and complete deity of Christ is defended. As Athanasius so often insisted, our salvation is compromised if you accept the Arian premise that Christ isn’t fully God. Christ had to be one with the Father to provide perfect salvation, and one with mankind by becoming fully man. To save us, Jesus had to be 100% God and 100% Man. Athanasius was really clear about this point.
We also see in the doctrine of the Trinity that the Bible’s teaching is well-balanced. There are many verses that depict the Father, Son and Spirit as divine, yet we are never taught in Scripture to worship three separate gods. We worship ONE GOD who is a Trinity of persons. How exactly something can be three and one at the same time is a mystery to us; yet we speak this way because the Bible makes both points equally clear. God is both three and one. He is a Tri-Unity, according to Scripture.
There is one final implication of the Trinity I want to mention. Imagine a man locked in solitary confinement his whole life. He lives in a stark white cell. Not once does he ever have any interaction with another living being. My point is not to focus on the tragic life or psychological trauma such a person would have, but to ask the simple question, “Can this man truly love?” In our imaginary scenario, we would have to say no, because he has no object for his love. He has no relationship with anyone. He is solitary. He is utterly alone. There is no one to receive his affection and give it back in return. But God is not like this. His love is so full, so abundant, so profound, that Relationship is built into his very being! Even before he said, “Let there be light” and created a world with people for Him to love, the giving and receiving of love already existed within the Trinity. God is a Community of persons who love each other perfectly.
Do you see what this means? The Trinitarian God is not just the “boss of the world”; he is Eternal Love. The experience of a relationship between Father, Son and Spirit is fundamental to who God is. Love is his identity – and he shares it with us! This is the amazing teaching of Jesus’ High Priestly Prayer in John 17:21. Jesus prays that all Christians may be one, just as he and the Father are one. In other words, Jesus invites us into the Trinity’s community of love! Interpersonal love characterizes God’s own being for all eternity. We are called to participate in it – and to demonstrate it to a watching world in our own relationships.
The doctrine of the Trinity is not as complex as theologians make it out to be. Yes, it has some mysterious aspects, but its basic ideas are clear enough. The Bible teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who love each other perfectly, forming one Trinity with a shared divine substance. The God of love invites us into his community, and he makes it possible for us to live in loving relationship with others so that the image of God can be seen in man.
Dr. Bryan Litfin, Associate Professor of Theology, Moody Bible Institute
I am so grateful for Dr. Litfin’s willingness to guest blog here at LPM. I think it is a beautiful thing when academic folks and ministry folks partner together. I wish it happened a whole lot more often. So, thank you, Dr. Litfin, on behalf of the entire LPM blog! And come back and visit again.


147 Comments:
oh this was very interesting and enlightening. Wow! is all I can say.
I just love when you post Melissa. YOu are a deepthinking woman of God. Love that about you.
hugs
Tammy S.
Dr. Litfin, I know first hand the monumental impact you've had on Melissa. She's quoted you or spoken of you several thousand times over the last five or six years. She had so much respect for you as a professor, THEN meeting Carolyn and falling so in love with her was icing on the cake. She became a fan of your family for life.
I am astonished that you would honor us with this fabulous guest post and that you would go so far as to call us by our community name. With a grin from ear to ear, I tell you that the term "Siestas" just went up a huge notch.
You have blessed us immeasurably. May Christ continue to fill you with "the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know Him better." Because of your faithfulness to teach, your knowing Him better means that every person who studies under you knows Him better...if they are willing.
Siestas are willing.
Thank you so much!
Yes, please do a regular feature on theo. issues! If I had the money and time, I'd go back for a degree like yours, Melissa! It sounds soooo interesting and fun. Honestly, I'd like support on any subject. I don't know how controversial of theo. issues you plan to delve into. I was concerned with some one who was talking recently about The Old Covenant and New Convenant. They claimed that the thief professed belief in Jesus as Savior and went to heaven because it was still the "old covenant" and that the "new covenant" followed Jesus death and ressurection (I think that's what they meant??) and that the thief wouldn't have gone to heaven if he had had his death bed conversion after the new covenant. I have no clue what they are talking about when they talk about this. I grew up Southern Baptist so my understanding of scripture doesn't support what this person was saying...If you aren't comfortable posting this on the blog, my email is heatherlbrandt (at) verizon (dot) net.
Thanks,
Heather
What a great post. Within the last few weeks I've found myself with a HUGE hunger for doctrinal knowledge and understanding.
Two issues I've encountered recently have caught my attention and caused me to have my nose in the Word to discern truth.
I'm finding these to be heavily debated issues without the denominations...
Was the finished of work of Christ on the Cross... or did he go to HELL (substitutionarily) to suffer in our place?
and...
Is healing guaranteed in the atonement? Is it God's will that not one should ever be sick?
I've researched the be-gee-bees out of these topics and believe I have an accurate understanding Biblically but want to thank you for knowing WE WOMEN CARE ABOUT THEOLOGY!!! We hunger for TRUTH and the intimacy that truth brings us in a relationship with God.
Love you Melissa!! It's an honor to serve Jesus with you.
WOW! and thank you.
Melissa, Dr. Litfin, I truly appreciate the work and time it took to pull this together in everyday lanugage. I also hope to hear much more on these subjects.
with a heart full for gratefulness!
~rachel
Awesome -- thanks Melissa and Dr. Litfin.
Judy B.
Thank you so much Melissa and thank you Dr. Litfin for blessing us with that wonderful lesson!
You are right Melissa, we do love to discuss theology and learn! But, Beth, I think after all this heavy thinking we may need a good hair post to balance things out! ;)
Blessings
Michelle
Dear Melissa and Dr. Litfin,
Thank you so much for this post. I have read it three times and know I will go back again...
The Trinity is a beautiful mystery I sometimes seem to grasp and understand until someone asks me to explain it...:)
Thank you for a clear and more precise answer but yet written for even me to understand!
I love the history and theology but really the blessing in this post is how the Trinitarian God is Eternal Love.
Thank you again.
Love and Blessings in Christ,
Michelle in Vermont
This is a great topic for discussion. It is also one that is frequently taken for granted.
I was surprised a couple of months ago to hear an aunt (who belongs to a different denomination) talking about some struggles her church was having with members who do not believe in the trinity. I suppose Modalism would be an accurate description of the position they are taking. The pastor of the church has been working to correct this error in his congregation, and has discovered (to his dismay) that his mother is one of the parishioners on the other side of the issue!
Let us never think we have outgrown sound teaching on the most fundamental doctrines of the faith. There are mysteries of God that should never be thought of as stale or commonplace.
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The Journey Continues ~
Melissa,
I ditto what Beth said!
Looking forward to reading in depth information from Dr. Litfin!!! whooo Hoooo!!!
Melissa, I am looking forward to you writing a book one of these days! Most people don't want to be Bible Academicians.
You got the gift girlfriend!!!!!
WRITE WRITE WRITE!!!!
With "Heaven Bound" blessings,
Kim Safina :)
Thank you, Dr. Litfin, for sharing the uniqueness of the Trinity with us. What an insightful and intriguing response you’ve shared with us! And thank you, Melissa, for encouraging us to grow ever closer to our amazing God! Yes, keep the theology coming!
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Thank you! This helped so much.
Keep um coming Melissa........
Shawn, Georgia
Thank you, thank you for putting into plain English what I have in my heart, but am unable to verbalize! We serve an amazing God Who wants us to join in His community of love. I'd love to read more on any topic you care to discuss.
WOW! I never stopped to think about relationship within the Trinity. Mind blowing and over-flowing with love. I so appreciate Dr. Litfin taking time to teach us Siestas. Melissa, thank you for stretching our brains!
I am LOVING THIS POST! So exciting to be able to dig further into the Word with those who love to do the same! Melissa, I'm always spellbound by your writing and hearing from Dr. Liffin is thrilling! Thanks for your inspiration. Can't wait for the next installment!
Doris
Trussville, Alabama
Wowzahs, that was good stuff! Thank you Melissa and Dr. Liftin... makes me want to go back to school right now and study!
Thanks for this great guest post! I've never read about the history of the theology of the Trinity. Very interesting.
This may sound strange, but I, in a way, came to terms with the mystery of the Trinity and not ever being able to fully understand it in my lifetime after hearing about a little book written by a mathematician about a fictional two-dimensional world he calls Flatland. The Flatlanders which inhabit this world can move from side to side, but have no concept of up and down (which would require a third dimension). Think of it as if they live in a piece of paper. If I were to pass my fingers through this two-dimensional space, the Flatlanders would see each finger as distinct and separate and would have no concept of them being part of the same body. In the same way, there's no way for me to currently completely understand how the three Persons of the Trinity are also One. I just have to believe it in faith.
Melissa,
Thank you for this awesome post. I'm not one who regularly comments but I wanted to say thank you. I love learning bible doctrine. It's strange and exciting to think about how the early church was left to sort out who Jesus really was, in relation to the Holy Spirit and to God Almighty. It's exciting that we are still sorting it out with the help of those who did most of the hard work hundreds of years before us. We should never take for granted the sacrifice of the early church, that faithful cloud of witnesses. What an awesome God we serve!
Blessings,
Poppy
Poppy, Thanks for commenting! And I think it is so interesting that the early church was left to sort it out as well and here we are thousands of years later trying to articulate it all in our own cultural context. It is amazing. Thanks for saying hello.
Dr. Litfin,
Thank you for shedding so much light on our understanding of the Trinity.
I have a dear friend who is an Iraqi Shiite Muslim. In our conversations of faith, she cannot begin to fathom how I can "worship three gods." Your post will help me to lovingly articulate the truth of the Trinity so much more effectively.
Thank you!
Christy
That is so helpful as I am struggling with teachers and preachers who keep saying that we invite Him to worship! He is inviting US! God Bless
Thank you both Melissa and Dr. Litfin for such a great post and an explanation that answers what I have been raised on and what I believe. Now when asked, I have a down-to-earth way of explaining how God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are truly 3 in 1.
Blessings.
Gaylene
Thank you Dr. Litfin and Melissa. To be honest, the depth of your answer still left me struggling to understand. Not believe, mind you, I do believe in the Trinity. But just plain understand what you are saying. I hope I am not being too simplistic, but this is a way that has helped me. Please tell me if this is totally incorrect. I think of the Trinity by using the example of H2O. H2O can be fluid (Jesus Christ), vapor (the Holy Spirit) or ice (God the Father). Each element is different and distinct, but still they are all
H2O. Simple explanation, I suppose, but it helped me find the Trinity much less a mystery.
Melissa,
Can I just give you a huge cyber hug??? I adore you more everyday!!
You are not afraid of anything...even the mystery of the Trinity!!
Please let Dr. Litfin know that I was honored that he would take time to do this complicated subject true justice without overwhelming a 50 year old brain!
I love, love, love Church History, Early Church Fathers, Theology (but no fighting please dear GOD!!!)
I have a question and I really need a straight forward answer - and I know if you read this..I will get it.
At age 50, my husband and best friend wants to return to the faith he remembered growing up with in the North - The RCC, Catholic Church. When our 23 year old son miraculously escaped death with only a scratch from a DUI crash that took the top off his car and not his upper body...(unreal!)...my quiet and private faith man wanted to dive in deep.
Let's just say he is the sweetest guy in the world...but TULIP (his brother is John Calvin seriously), and all the other Protestant churches around us were not for him.
Not to offend because I am a cradle Protestant...but he basically said, "Welch's grape juice and a cracker in disposable cups twice a year is scary awful!"
So, my question is - I am pretty sure Beth is ecumenical minded about Catholics, right? I think I even met Sister Lynn on the Siesta blog.
I am still welcome as long as I don't talk about differences of beliefs, etc....I hope???
It's been trying to say the least...the last 3 months I've lost some friends and even my guys brother is not speaking to us!
Will you guys let me know somehow, please? My heart is fragile right now and I've cried a bucket full of tears, but I'm going with my man because I prayed and prayed for him to be the spiritual leader and he definitely is now.
Love and big hugs...more theology please..even if I can't comment..I'll read
Teri
Thank you for stretching my brain on this sultry summer day. It will take several re-reads for it all to sink in but man does my heart yearn to learn so I can be a better witness for Christ.
Thank you, Melissa, for going the distance to bring us better understanding of this key part of Christianity. For lack of any better way to say it, YOU ROCK.
Thank you, Dr. Litfin, for taking the time out of what is no doubt a busy schedule, to teach this willing "classroom" full of knowledge-hungry Siestas. You have a wonderful way of making it understandable and a little easier to grasp. We are blessed and richer for your visit.
Blessings all around,
Melinda
Wow! Thanks so much for getting this added perspective, Melissa! I look forward to reading through it very slowly tonight with a cup of tea :)
Have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!! <3
Melissa and Dr. Liftin - Thanks so much for the post; it takes me back to my seminary days! Love it!
Holly in Houston
Love, love, love this! Thanks to Melissa for helping us be smarter about the God we love. And thanks to Dr. Litfin for your willingness to engage our minds on this issue. My husband is a deep-thinker about theological issues and I can't wait to share your post with him. I know he will also be blessed by your explanation.
Grace and peace,
Faran
Wow this was so good! Thank you Melissa and thank you Dr. Liftin for taking the time to do this post. You outline everything so clearly. I love that I can have better knowledge on this issue, especially as my children are growing and asking tougher questions!
With gratitude ~ Kristin
Thank you Melissa and Dr. Litfin - GREAT post and in language I can not only understand, but hopefully be able to reiterate in conversation with others! Such a central and important theme, as Christians we should all have this one down pat with no hesitation.
Thanks for keeping us on our theological toes!!!
THANK YOU!
This was absolutely food for my soul!! My awakening began 18 months ago and how I LOVE this path!!
This helped me in so many ways!!
Thank You!!
Wow! Can't wait to share this with my college-aged son. Also, to "HIS Daughter" God's going to honor your commitment to your husband and to Him.
Anonymous,
I know that Trinitarian language can be very tricky which is why I got Dr. Litfin to write the post. I’ve never seen it exposited any better or any smoother. I must say though that it is best to refrain from some of the standard analogies like water, ice, and vapor. These are often too simplistic and could be interpreted as heresy (for example, modalism). We should stretch our minds to ponder the mystery even if it is hard to understand before we try to make it too simplistic. Thank you so much for writing. I hope this helps you.
Melissa
What a great post, although I still lovethe baby and puppy pictures.
It brought back ideas I haven't thought about since my undergrad days at Bible College.
Thank you Melissa for this - I so agree that you should write a book! Thank you for your insight, inspiration and willingness to share your knowledge with us!
Dr. Litfin, thank you for taking your time to offer such a teaching to us. Looking forward to your book!
Blessings to all!
PeggySue - San Antonio, Tx
Melissa,
Thank you for taking your time to help us learn more about theology. It is a truly scary subject (all those BIG words) and I appreciate you bringing your post to us on a level we can understand.
I had to read through it rather quickly, as I was pressed for time, but I will try to go over it again later a little more slowly.
Thank you again and love to you all.
Melissa
The idea of 3 persons, 1 substance gives me some clarity. That's what I've always thought but didn't have the words to express it so it made sense! I also appreciate the admonition to be aware of the things we are being taught and to be certain we are taught the doctrine of tri-unity. One of the things I observe about many evangelicals today is that there is such a fear of becoming legalistic that doctrine is being ignored or at the least treated lightly and rarely. Thanks for the deep stuff that is full of TRUTH.
What a blessing this was to me today. I've had my mind blown contemplating the eternal nature of God and gotten my tongue tripped up trying to explain how Jesus was present at Creation to my children (6,5,3). And although I knew that the Holy Spirit was "hovering over the waters" at Creation, I had never meditated on the eternal nature of the Comforter until now. How extremely, blessedly comforting that the One who sealed me and guides me is triune with the Ancient of Days.
At the risk of sounding completely incoherent, I had always thought of the Holy Spirit as really only getting involved in my life as He regenerated my spirit and then came to dwell in me. I am chewing hard, and with great relief, as I realize that He knows -- and has always known -- every part of my history. I can trust that when He asks me to do something that is uniquely hard for me,for He knows why it is hard for me, He was present when it happened (?), and He will supply the extra strength and grace needed by me. Not just because He is the Holy Spirit and can do these things, but because it is a personal gift to me, for He was there when the wound began. My intimacy with the Father and Son fully extends to the Holy Spirit. How had this eluded me before?
Thank you from those of us who crave to learn more of the deepest mysteries of God!
Thank you Dr. Litfin. I appreciate your willingness to 'go an extra mile' and share your insight with us. May God bless you.
Pat from Kansas
I want to know if I am understanding this correctly but in an "easy to wrap my brain around" way. God is a divine substance in Heaven, Christ is a divine substance that came to earth and the Holy Spirit is a divine substance that lives in us...?
Thanks,
Hillary S.
Love this post. Thank you Dr. Litfin and Melissa for writing on the subject. That was something I honestly hadn't really thought about before. I guess I was misinformed early on in my church upbringing. A HUGE light bulb just went off in my head!
Kristen
Melissa,
I am SO excited about you doing some theology posts every once in a while. I LOVE it!
Dr. Litfin did a marvelous job of explaining the Trinity.
Can't wait for more!
Blessings,
Sister Lynn
Thank you for posting that, Melissa.
Since we are discussing theology, specifically the Trinitarian aspect, I was wondering if I could ask a question that has been bothering me for a long time.
What did Jesus mean when he said that no one, including himself, is good but the Father? Mark 10:18, "'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good—except God alone.'"
Arleen,
Very good question. I will add that to my list of post topics for another day. Hope you have a great day!
Love,
Melissa
Wow! I'll will be reading this again. I'm so grateful for the explanation and the opportunity to understand and learn.
My husband knows Carolyn because they graduated from HS together.
Lets keep this up Melissa. This is awesome. We need this.
Blessings~
Fran
LORD have mercy! My frontal lobes are working overtime and I love it. I'll have to read this about 12 times to even begin to get it...but I am so grateful! Thank you Melissa for esteeming our brains so highly...you believe we will get it and so we WILL!!! Thanks to the Professor...just a GLORY to know people have the head knowledge with the heart passion. Thanks for bringing home some scholarly study for us siestas! ps please tackle the Timothy thing about women not teaching and being silent...I'm thinking there has to be a mistake.
thank you, melissa and dr. litfin! this post was perfectly timed - we have a new sister in Christ who has just come out of being a jehovah's witness coming to our home group. she has so many questions about the trinity, and this post will help tremendously.
i really appreciate both of you!
Hi Melissa,
Thank you for your post today. It was great. I have a question. Dr. Litfin said," The Bible teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who love each other perfectly..." which I agree with. A few weeks ago, one of our pastors said that "God is a worshipper; He worships Himself." I've never heard that before. Have you? A friend asked the pastor and he said it's not in a Bible verse but a writing of a guy named John (somebody). I was just wondering if that is a common teaching that I missed somewhere along the way.
Thank you.
I think it is intresting that the subject of the Trinity and the declarations of the Nicene Creed were delt with and settled in the hearts of the men who "chose" and compiled the New Testament that we have today. Eternal truths "cornerstones" if you will or "plumb lines" tools used to acomplish the task of assembling and compiling the WORD OF GOD. Like David I often say I do not concern myself with things to high for me, it is enough to succeed in the days trouble at hand, but Oh the joy of an occasional foray into deeper things.. Shalom
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Thank you for this explination, I for one, need all kinds of repetion. I found that after years of "Strawberry Letter 22" I know those words and they really make no sense to me after 35 years of listening to it. The Nicene Creed does and I think I need to set it to music so I can memorize it! In fact I would like to set the whole Bible and memorize it.............A girl can dream!
ANYWHOO I love theology and thank you for a great post.
Thank you Melissa and Dr. Litfin. How generous of Dr. Litfin to take the time to post this for us. Much appreciated. I have never attended Bible college, let alone seminary but I appreciate having my (older)mind stretched in a theological direction!
Lynn
Anonymous,
Thank you for your comment. I have never heard the exact phrase "God is a worshipper; He worships Himself." But I am familiar with the teaching of Jonathan Edwards and John Piper who would both argue something similar even though I am not sure that they would use that precise expression since I have never read or heard that exact phrase. Someone more informed may be of better help.
I am much more familiar with the phrase "God is God-centered". If you want to read this kind of teaching for yourself I would recommend reading "God's Passion for His Glory" by John Piper and also "God is the Gospel" by the same author. Jonathan Edwards' book "The End for which God Created the World" is also classic but would be more technical.
Thank you soo much for posting this. It was so deep and yet understandable at the same time! I look forward to future posts. Dr. Liftin is talented to break down such big ideas into small digestible bites! :)
Thank you very much; I appreciate your time and will look forward to reading your thoughts on this issue in the future.
please do a regular theology feature. I love the hair posts and the randomness, but the occasional deep mind stretch is good for us too.
Great post! There is a book that I read to my 4 year old girls called "3-in-1 A Picture of God" by Joanne Marxhausen. It depicts the Trinity in terms of an apple: 3 distinct parts (the core, the flesh and the skin), but yet still one apple. Thanks for the theological discussions. Keep them coming!
Melissa,
What a fantastic post. I am not sure if you are able to comment on this since I have not seen it mentioned in any postings, but what is your opinion of how the Trinity was portrayed in The Shack? Thanks so much for sharing these in-depth posts.
For Arleen and Melissa,
I have read somewhere about that verse and the one similiar in St. Matthew's gospel - Where Jesus says that only the Father is good or do not call him good
I'm not sure why he would say it, but the Early Church fathers and many today would have to say that if you were in the business of promoting Jesus and the true Jewish Messiah...YOU WOULD NOT have Him say something like that in your Holy Spirit inspired writings.
Just like they were honest about the women who were at the tomb first and that Our Lord appeared to Mary of Magdala first....none of that would be something you would record if you were trying to make HIM the One and Only Messiah for Israel and Gentiles!
Gives you goosebumps when you know that it didn't phase them to record Christ's actual words even if they sounded strange. They KNEW HE was alive and had walked with HIM before HIS Resurrected body assended into heaven....waiting for the moment HE can come for HIS bride!
That's real romance!
Blessings,
Teri
Love it! Thanks, Melissa! If you ever want to discuss deep theology I'm in!
I love this post because I recently studied the Patristic Era while working on my MA at Northeastern Seminary and wrote a final paper on Athanasius' "On the Incarnation". Great message on the fundamentals of the Trinity.
Beth, will you be making Dr. Litfin an honorary Siesta?
:)
Michele
Liverpool, NY
Yes, yes, yes!!! Bless your lil heart Melissa for the amazing, 'understandable' explanation from Dr. Litfin and for sharing this with 'all' and from this 'Montana gal' who has been reading your blog 'religiously' :) but never posted before. I'm quite 'computer challanged' and have never quite figured out what an HTML etc. really is.......sigh. This may not make it either,but know I'll at least be reading and so enjoying how much you 3 share of your family, and because of your transparency, make us all love the Lord just that much more...with, and thru you.
Waiting for my 'summer Bible study workbook' with bated breath...need that to keep me 'on track' and deeper in his word.....I so need accountability to keep me from 'running amuck'.
Bless you all....BIG...
Montana gal
screekside@midrivers.com
Ok, I'm going to have to save this for later. Kids, Hubby and I are doing some cleaning before a slew of compnay in a few days. This great post will have to wait for peace, quiet and a mind ready to process such important information.
Thank you for providing a break from kid lingo. Sometimes I feel my brain can only make it to a "4th" grade level. It's a relief to know that I still have a tiny bit of intelect left somewhere in the gray matter. I'm also glad that we can learn and stimulate our minds for God's glory not for our own advancement.
Janet NC
Thanks for a wonderful post. Just like you said, Melissa, Dr. Litfin does a good job at tackling a complex subject and putting it in terms ordinary people can understand. I will definitely be reading that again!
Oh I loved this. And Melissa, I thought of another topic that I wanted to know more about last week. But I didn't post it. I wish I should have but anyway. Thank you for posting this for us.
Andree
Dr. Litfin,
Thank you so much! How cool that we siestas and this stay at home mom could have a theology lesson while at home carrying for children! what a true blessing! please come back again! thanks melissa!
kimberly, alabama
Thanks for that post! I read through it once quickly but will go back through and really study it. I heard the trinity described using my brother as an illustration: he is my brother, a husband and dad. Each relates a little different but over all the same.
Melissa, keep these coming. If we don't exercise our brains where these issues are concerned or never come to an understanding, it is so easy to be convinced to believe in stinkin' thinkin' where theoology is concerned. We need to be able to communicate what we believe and be able to back it up. Then we stand firm in what we believe.
Jan
Thank you so much for being such a safe place on the web. I love the Siesta community. Thank you for addressing issues and explaining Biblical truths in such an encouraging way. Somehow, things on here are never divisive. I don't know how you do it. So many Christians spend so much of their time arguing with other Christians who believe differently from them on subjects that aren't a matter of life and death, and pointing out what other "camps" are doing wrong and what they need to do right. I so appreciate that you don't do this on here. Somehow you teach us truth without condemning. It seems so rare these days.
Jessica
Greensboro, NC
Melissa, you are amazing in your passion for words, teaching and expounding on a topic or topics. Rock on, Siesta!
Wow, thanks. I've got to go read it again.
I cannot thank you enough for this post! It is so educational and understandable. You rock, Melissa! I hope we will hear from Dr. Litfin again!
Thanks for that Dr. Litfin and Melissa. It is clear helpful to tihnk of the trinity as 3 persons, one subestance. I have two questions (well more, but as we are over a blog and not over a coffee I'll keep it to two!)
1) Clearly the bible states that all three parts of the trinity are fully divine, but is there a hierarchy within it (and what is the biblical basis either way)
2) How do we explain verse the 'hear o israel the Lord your God the Lord is one' - is the 'one' not referring to 'one person' but 'one substance' - I am happy to beleive in the Trinity, in fact agree it is central to my faith, but I've never really understood that verse in trinity context
Thanks and God bless
Ems
And so...
We seek Him!
And when we meet Him we will know.
Praise for my brain that some days hungers for such depth and intrigue and some days just wants to be held.
Thank you.
Man, oh man! That was AWESOME! I sometimes think the Lord is calling me to seminary because I love to learn and I love to teach!
That was all so very interesting and enlightening. As soon as I get home I am going to print this and meditate on it.
Thank you so very much!!!
GOD IS AWESOME!! ALL OF HIM!!!
Woo-hoo!!!
PS Dr. Litfin, you are a very good teacher and presenter. Thank you for giving me a greater understanding! May the Lord continue to fill you with His wisdom so you can pass it on to all of your students! They are surely blessed and you have surely blessed me as well! See ya in class or see ya in Heaven - whichever the Lord calls me to first!
The timing of this post is perfect. Had it come at any other time of the year I would have had to scan it! But in summer, this homeschooling mom gets to do her OWN reading!
Love, love, love this post. Thank you, Dr. Litfin! I want to peruse it more carefully (you know, to check for heresy). ;-D
Beth, I am going through Daniel for the second time, this time as moderator. I invited upper high school and college girls to join me, and their mothers, in this IMPORTANT study of living lives of integrity in a Babylon world.
WOW. What an impact! The 14 of us thank you from the bottom of our hearts! We are studying Week 8 (Antiochus Spreads Hate!) and hope to finish the third week of July. Except, we don't want it to end!
How smart are we for making it this far? :-)
Melissa, thank you. I cannot wait to come back and read this.
I have a question tho - you went to Moody, but got your masters at Wheaton? So what did you do at Moody? Did you go there for undergrad, or get two masters?
Just trying to put it all together. :)
Missy, I went to Moody for undergrad and I majored in Biblical Studies with an emphasis in Biblical Languages. I did grad school at Wheaton in Biblical Exegesis. I am actually starting another Master's Degree (a Th.M.) in the Fall though, so funny that you asked.
Thank you for the post. Crystal clear and not as intimidating as I would have thought. Once you have done all the Beth studies, sometimes you get hungry for even more. Keep challenging us.
Wow ~ thank you Dr Litfin for trusting us to wrap our minds around the deeper things and treating us with such respect as learners ~ capable of understanding!
Melissa ~ thank you for honoring our desire to know and be streched to a place of greater understanding in the scripture. Bring it on.
~ much love
Melissa and Dr. Litfin,
Thank you for taking the time to post that informative article. I know I will reread it and ponder more.
If you haven't read The Shack it gives a wonderful illustration on how the Trinity relate to each other.
God bless!
Stephanie
Alexandria, VA
Melissa THIS ROCKED!!! Thank you so much for taking this to a completely new whole super kickin level!
Thank you Dr. Litfin for jumping into the deep end with us seistas!
Jodi, Plymouth MN
Count me a Smitten Siesta! And, a big SHOUT OUT to Dr. Liftin. I always love it when we have a Miesta show up. Don't be a stranger! How brave a man to wade deep into the waters of Siestaville - with Bible and history books in tow. Wow.
I love loving the Triune One God. Besides being so full of love, He is so full of mysteries as well; and it seems to me in no other line of engagement do we bump up against the Great Mystery of God then when we contemplate and meditate on His Three-In-One nature.
When my children were little we had no end of discussion about the Trinity ("How can Jesus be God when He prays to God? Is He praying to Himself?") I came up with a little ditty that we would say right before the lights went out:
"God the Father; God the Son; God the Spirit; the Three in One."
Not that it elaborates on the mystery of God - but I hope it imprinted the mystery onto their darling little hearts and minds.
Warm in Alaska.
Thank you for covering things I have been pondering, too.
Hi Melissa - I just joined the Siesta community I believe on new year's eve (2008). I was looking for a Beth Moore bible study group because a counselor had recommended it to me. I stumbled on the blog and read Beth's post about starting a scripture memory - that was the Lord! Because for the first time I am actually memorizing scripture.
The response on Theology is also God's leading because I have always struggled with understanding the Trinity especially the role of the Holy Spirit as God and I am so grateful for a better understanding. Thank You for taking the time.
Sincerely
Ola
Ola! I am so excited that you are memorizing Scripture for the first time. That is exciting. And thank you for commenting, I had never seen your name before! Take Care!
I thought this read about the Trinity was very interesting and refreshing. That love holds it all together and God is love, holds 3 in 1, 1 in 3.
I know of some groups that believe, "how can Jesus pray to Himself if Jesus was God in the flesh because Jesus was just the Son of God." And I think to myself, If Jesus ain't God in the flesh than I have a problem, it makes sense though I don't understand it that Jesus was/is God in the flesh and yet man too. But, as Dr. Bryan Litfin said it is a mystery, glad he said that.
I think this verse is interesting:
Colossians 2:8
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
and then this verse is interesting:
Isaiah 6:9
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
I had a friend who never believed the bible taught the Trinity. He was a follower of William Brahnam's teaching. I have wondered about baptism in water from some of my talks with my friend. One thing my friend said that was an interesting point was how one should be baptized. He said, it has to be said, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus" because that is the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This was his reference:
Matt 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." I wonder about that.
(my notes: what is that name and is there suppose to be a name called out in baptism not just their titles?)
Just my thoughts, enjoyed the read!
Allison
What an awesome description and clear explanation of the Trinity! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
Thank you so much Dr Litfin.
Thanks Melissa!
This is not going to sound very educated, but oh well...I could picture all the brainies getting together way back in the day to discuss among themselves. I felt so bad for them...they had to figure this all out...how delightfully frustrating it must have been to have not recognized what was there all the time...to read between the lines...to understand that there really is no understanding to the full mystery of God. I can also imagine the delight as He revealed His Truth to them. I'm so glad for Truth revealed!
Hey Melissa,
Thanks so much for going for this! I think you are so right that it's awesome when academia and ministry work together. We should not be anti-intellectual; our God is not.
Thanks, also, for reiterating that we should major on the majors--one of the reasons we joined our church was because they do just that. It's not a perfect church (that entity doesn't exist), but it does have that part right.
Ok, this southern girl's brain hurts but thank you LPM for always stretching me!!!! I love it! I am so thankful for this post and the fact that he referenced "what does that mean for us in 2009". I felt like such a smart dude could still most certainly relate! YOU GUYS ROCK!
K
This has been a great post. I can't believe I am seeing a former high-schooler in a church I attended in Memphis years ago, all grown up. I was a counselor on a Florida trip he went on when his father was preaching there. Amazing, all that he has done. Carolyn looks familiar as well, from First Evan in Memphis?? Wow, what a small world. Thanks for sharing with us. I always knew God would do something awesome with you!!! Amanda, Olive Branch, MS
Wonderful! Thank you Melissa and Dr. Litfin!
Krista W.
Wow Melissa, thanks for bringing Dr. Litfin on board, especially for a treatise on the Trinity... but i have to say, reading through the "pattern" of blue and white diamonds did add additional challenges:)
Thank you so much! Thank you for honoring us as women of the Word, capable and willing to dive in deep!
Also, I want to echo Jessica's thanks for making this blog a "safe" community for conversation. I've had enough church conflict recently to last me the rest of my life. I can't tell you how much I appreciate being able to come here and just chat, knowing that I won't be condemned... just loved and made smarter! =)
Barb in PA
I tried to read this before I had eaten anything in a long time. Could not understand a single word. I just went back and re-read it. Amazing what a difference some food will make for the brain! After all, I had to DO something while I was waiting for my next Esther video session to download. Time's up! Thanks for the post.
Wow that was very interesting! I would love to read more. I realized to day it has been a long time- more than three years since I read anything remotely academic! Thank you!!!
Wow, that was so awesome!! I just finished up reading "The Shack" and would love to have your take on that book. I know the book is fiction, but the concepts of the Trinity were pretty eye opening to me. Dr. Litfin's description was very similar to the one I got after reading that book.
OK, THAT was GOOD!
I thought I had a grasp on the Trinity...but that is the most understandable explanation I have ever read.
Thank-you Dr. Litfin for visiting our blog. I guess you are now officially a "miesta"!!
Melana in Wyoming
Melissa, Dr. Litfin, thank you for insightful information that still leads us into relationship with the I AM.
Thank you Melissa and Dr. Litfin! I really like the example of Melissa, Amanda and Beth being female, or one substance, but distinct people. I will use this example to explain The Trinity to some of my Mission Raleigh kids!
I feel smarter today!
Melissa you are too freakin cool!
Gosh Melissa, I have to get my dictionary out to look up some of the words you write...
You are an intelligent woman of God. Thank you for challenging me in such a way. What does Exegesis mean? I one guess I am of very simple mind-hang out with a one and half year old and a three year old for most of the day and well, that is what happens to you. I believe Amanda talked about mommy mushbrain only mine is Grams'mush brain.
Dr. Liftin's explanation of the Trinity is so awesome. I have to admit, I had no idea. I often just accept things the way they are. I have always wondered where the term heresies fit in. I feel so incredibly honored that he posted here. I wouldn't even have known where to begin...
Kels
Melissa,
Thank you for sharing Dr. Litfin with us, its amazing how long I have been in church and have not read anything or heard anything explained quite like this message.
It empowers you to study more and realize that you have so much more to learn about God's Love for us. I want to learn more so I can truly share more with greater confidence. Thank you both for the blessing, even though my brain has had to re-read it twice~
Blessings to you,
Louise
Sacramento,CA
I am so excited that we are discussing the deep beliefs of our faith. I truly believe that it is imperative that we understand our faith in order to be ready to give an answer. (1 Peter 3:8-15)(NIV)
I have been an avid student of the Bible for over 25 years. The more I read and study, the more beautiful it becomes to me.
As thrilling as it is to have a man of your distinction and education write a post to us, I respectfully and humbly ask to discuss your post. Not to disagree, but merely to understand. As my other favorite Bible Lady; Kay Arthurs says,(Beth being my first) let the Bible interpret the Bible.
Dear Dr. Litfin and Dear Melissa;
How do we understand the trinity using Scripture? I can't carry my computer around to show women that I minister to this post, but I can carry my Bible around. Is there a "Romans Road" to understanding the *3 in 1* of God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit? And about God the Holy Spirit...can we talk more about that? Not the controversial aspect of it, but the person of the Holy Spirit. It is the least defined in the trinity.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,..."
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This certainly supports that they are seperate. And one.
In addition to understanding the trinity, I can see how this could easily turn into an explanation of how Christ is the fulfillment to the Jews of the Old Testament prophesies... ;)
Thank you for your time and committment to the Siestas; and to the Living God!
Jillian
Melissa & Dr Litfin
I really enjoyed reading this blog entry and found Dr. Litfin's piece to be clear and precicise, without simplifying the mystery that is the Triune God. And it is a mystery isn't it, such a glorious mystery!
I once read as part of a Kay Arthur study never to take one scripture on it's own but to evaluate all that speak of your studied issue. And IF after all that study your understanding still does not fit with God's word...then you ditch your understanding and trust in what He has written!
As a girl who luuurves her bible study I found this realisation incredibly liberating, I LOVE the mystery of God after all...
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55: 8-9
Thankyou!
Kim
Thank you for tackling the theo. topics!!!!
I have so often wondered about the Nicean Creed (as well as the apostles creed) and to hear where and why it originated, thank you for explaining!!! As i opened The Daily Light to study and meditate, today (June 23rd) is about the Spirit!!! I love Louie Giglio's terms about the Holy Spirit, "that He is a part of the God-head, not an it. don't pray to it, it has a name and it is the Holy Spirit!" Thank you for diving into such topics that have been lost... I love it!!! AmAzing!!!
Thank you SOOOO much for sharing your wisdom and knowledge to us!
We are so blessed!
Melissa: Thank you from the bottom of my heart - I love this so much. Please convey to Dr. Litfin how thankful we are for his taking time to expound these truths for us. That speaks highly of you young woman - that he would do this on your behalf! (I am NOT surprised at that one bit - your energy and enthusiasm are contagious.)
I will confess something here on the blog...but it better not go any further!!! :)
Now when my husband the Pastor and my son the Pastor (who is also working on his doctorate in something biblical exegetical hermeneutical), start having their "discussions," I may just be able to add a word or two...I can't wait!!!
So glad you started with the Trinity - how absolutely foundational and Rock Solid!
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost! Reminds me of some of the doxologies we used to sing in church when I was a little girl...
Love you much,
Jan
Amen and amen! Having grown up Catholic, the Trinity was celebrated that I have never questioned it, but more than once have had to defend it. I was well trained to do so, but I am going to print this post and keep it by the front door the next time my doorbell rings and I get to debate it! What a wonderful tool you have given us!
Thanks for this post. What is amazing that during my quiet time in the morning I prayed that somehow God would reveal some understanding about the Trinity, as I was feeling a bit confused about it. I came home from work, was checking the blog and WOW... there was a post about the Trinity. God is AMAZING!!!
Dr. Litfin,
Thank you so much for taking the time to expound on such an important topic. I walked away impacted and enlightened.
Melissa,
Thank you so much for these posts. They are food to a hungry soul!
Love you girl.
LeighAnne
This was *incredible*. I just read a book about this. God is teaching me so much. Thank you for the timing & quality of this post! My husband & I serve at a church in a very small, country town & rarely come in contact with people willing to discuss theological matters with us and so it's easy to become complacent about them. The posts & writings on this site always encourage & challenge. Thank you.
Dear Melissa,
Thank you for writing this post on doctrinal questions. I thoroughly appreciate having a guest writer too. It is so important that we hear from the many voices that God gives us. When I read the post on the Holy Trinity it evoked memories of my mom and I talking about the Holy Trinity when I was a little girl. She bought and read to me this wonderful book called 3 In 1: A picture of God. by Joanne Marxhausen. To my delight it is available on Amazon.com I thought that it might be a good resources for moms and kids. (and maybe the rest of us too!) http://www.amazon.com/3-1-Picture-Joanne-Marxhausen/dp/0570034191
Kindly, Tracy
Melissa,
How wonderful that you have responded above and beyond my wildest expectations! I love God's Word and all things theological and can't wait for this type of post to become a regular feature!
To Dr. Litfin I want to say "THANK YOU" from the bottom of my heart for your wonderful and clearly explained piece on the Trinity! It has cleared up a few "cloudy" areas that I had related to the subject. I look forward to other guest posts in the future.
Signing off with a joyful heart!
Stephanie
Thank you so much Dr. Litfin. That was so eye opening. I thank you as well, Melissa, for posting this because it was wonderful. Thank you for being the open minded deep thinker that you are.
I LOVE this post. Melissa - you are deeply deeply blessed to have been able to study and read and walk amongst people who love God so much! Thank you for then turning around and blessing us! I will anxiously await your next post.
Dr. Litfin - wow - what an amazing post - thank you so very much.
May God continue to shower both of you with a hunger and thirst that is only quenched in Him! Sunshine
Oh Melissa! Oh man... my heart is so full right now. Thank you so much for sharing this with us! Thank you asking us to swim with you in the deep!
I want to thank Dr. Litfin for putting this information into such clear and concise terms for us. He confirmed what my heart already knew. What an incredible blessing and honor it is that he would share such knowledge with us.
How I would love to be able to go back to school to study things like this. Perhaps when my kids are older... although I often feel like I'm in *an awesome* school when I'm doing Mamma Beth's Bible Studies! :o) In the meantime Miss Melissa, perhaps we can continue to have an occasional online class right here--just like this!
Excuse me while I go do a happy dance and spend some time with our incredible Triune GOD, whose very substance and nature is LOVE!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Anna
I just finished reading this blog post and am so appreciative for Melissa and Dr. Litfin for taking the time to write this. It was a WOW article! Thank you so much.
Blessings,
Marita
Thank you for the theological posts, Melissa. Please keep it up!! In my current circle, I only have my husband to discuss these things with. It's so nice to have theological discussions with other women!
Hah, Melissa, it rocks that you got Litfin to post on the LPM blog! It was Litfin that got my husband all fired up about Church History at Moody, and it was Litfin that advised him to go to DTS to study early Church history further, it was Dr. Horrell at DTS that taught Isaac's Trinitarian class and revolutionized the way Isaac thought about the whole thing.
So - I think it's awesome that you posted on the Trinity and that Litfin contributed. What a guy, right? I'm excited to see some of his work coming out in book form - we're already using it and recommending it to people.
Melissa,
I am sitting here after reading these posts and your responses to the posts and am close to tears. I feel so incredibly dumb and intimidated because there is so much that I didn't think of or couldn't think of. I know it sounds silly but I feel like I am out of my league. I lack understanding or brain cells or something.
Kels
Kacie! Fun to hear from you again! That class at DTS sounds amazing. And it was so fun having Dr. Litfin post... a little slice of 2004.
When my oldest daughter was 4 she asked how God could be three people and the One at the same time. I did my best to explain it to her in terms I thought she could understand. Later, we were driving home and she said from her carseat in the back-seat, "Momma, is it like God is sitting in the driver's seat helping you drive and Jesus is back here with me, and the Holy Spirit is in the front seat by you making sure we get where we're supposed to be going?"
Nothing against Dr. Litfin, but I'm not sure it gets much simpler than that! And from a four year old...out of the mouths of babes.
Thank you, Dr. Litfin for the post. It was wonderful! Thank you, Melissa for inviting him and having the hunger for theology you have. Thank you, Beth, for making us hunger more and find satisfaction through your studies! Thank you, Amanda for seeming to be part of the glue that holds all this together!
You are all such a blessing to this country girl who's just trying to love Jesus more as each day passes! Blessings in abundance to you and all yours!
Melissa,
Thanks for creating an environment to talk about things theological with such intention. After graduating from seminary some years ago, I've cherished the practice of pastoring and shepherding but I ache for the depth of conversation that came from my constructive theology classes. What a treasure you've shared with us through Dr. Litfin's generous words and contribution to the conversation. I think it's so important we keep in the front of our minds the relationship that the Father, Son and Spirit share. We don't picture it often, but when we let our holy imaginations add color to the sketch we have in Scripture, the Word comes alive in a new way. We are called to community because God, in of Himself, is Divine Community.
Thanks again for bringing the discussion to the table.
Joy Sherman
Springfield, OH
Thanks so much for writing on the Trinity. I was wanting to ask for that on your last post but didn't and then saw that a few did and hoped you would take it up. That was from God.
My husband always says I, like most christians, never think about doctrines like the trinity but just accept them spoonfed. I try to study and read but as a mom of 3 young boys, it's not enough. So I really appreciated Dr. Litfin's answer. It gave me peace and my first instinct was to go to my husband and say, see! But God quieted me and filled me with an assurance that didn't need to be justified.
So thanks again,
Jodi, Croatia
Hey Mrs. Melissa!:)
I had to read this slower to process it better:) I had heard of the Council of Nicaea because of some of my Pastor's sermons...church history is really interesting to me. Yes, thanks Dr. Litfin for being a guest on the LPM blog! I did learn more about the Trinity. I had to process it a bit, but I did learn something:):)
katiegfromtennessee
Please continue posting such wonderful "meat!" What rich insights.
Thank you for providing this post and for Dr. Litfin's profound yet very readable contribution. Every generation has to really stay grounded in truth through God's word and I am thankful for those of you with the teaching gift to guide us and to help us to KNOW God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit better. In Jesus' Love Kathy Knoblock
Thank you for giving us heavy meet to chew on and not just fat and fluff. That is one of the things I love about this ministry and about Melissa...no fluff!
I fear I'm about to open up a whole new can of worms here, but is Arianism what the Arian Nations believe and if so how does that relate to the whole white supremacy thing? Sorry, I just have live near where their compound was for years my whole life (was very glad to be rid of them, by the way). So, the word "Arianism", struck an interest for me. I was fascinated to hear the history of the struggle to understand the Trinity. Most people are afraid to even touch the subject, so never knew much about that. Thank you!
AAAAHHH! I love love LOVE this post. LOVE this post. Thank you!!! ...Restraining myself from packing up my bags & heading to Moody right this very minute. :)
Sorry, don't know where else to post this...but recently listened to a very good, convicting sermon by John Piper. I know we are all women at the well in some form or another but I feel like I've been this way for years...the woman at the well with a hard heart. Could use some extra prayer for a breakthrough with my relationship with Jesus. And it's not that I don't go to church and get involved in studies but sheesh, can a gal be changed? For His glory?
Thanks.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/3999/Audio/
Sigh.
Last night I was praying that a 50 yr old (me) who wants to be involved with sharing the Word, Teaching the Word, and studying on a very collegiate level, would be able to do so.
I wish I could go to Bible college, I wish God would use me in that sort of fashion.
Is that being ungrateful?
At least I know others have a real desire to delve into such deep topics...sigh sigh.
This is a wonderful addition to the study and it was exciting reading Dr. Litfin's post. It is so exciting to consider the magnitude and mystery of God. When I get even a glimmer of deeper understanding of His character it's like I swallowed a star! Bless you all <><
Melissa,
I can see why you love this guy!!! Intelligent and able to communicate. Plus, most importantly, his passion for the Lord and study shines through. Thank you so much for this post. It truly blessed me. Wish I could take one of his classed!!!
Blessings, Joan
Melissa~
I really hope you get to read this comment because I was so excited when I found it last night that I could hardly contain myself.
Tomorrow my mother (Pamela) and father (John) are moving three states away. It's the first time in all of my 28 years that we will be living more than fifteen minutes away from each other. In an effort to clean house, mom has been giving me a lot of her things, and last night she put in my hand her copy of "Living Beyond Yourself: Exploring the Fruit of the Spirit."
Before last night, I had never heard of this particular Beth study, nor did I have the faintest idea that my mom had already done it. Last night I curled up in bed and started flipping through it and reading some of mom's answers. On the very last page in the margin, mom wrote something that I wanted to share with you. It reads:
7/4/08 4:13 AM
The Trinity - reading what the Bible says about it in June's (my mom's) 'The Bible Says Study Guide, 1st Copywrite 1937': Trinity = Tri unity of persons. Genesis 1:26 God said 'Let us make man in our image,' indicating unity and plurality in the same being.
God: Creator, intellect, overseer, parent
Jesus (Human): Action, humility, sacrifice, submission
Holy Spirit: Love, acceptance, truth, conviction, accountability
Taking us back to the obedience, to the head of the trinity - God - whom Jesus did not equate himself to."
Then she wrote two math equations:
1+1+1=3
1x1x1=1
Something about reading that after your post about the Trinity just made my cup runneth over. Now, hopefully you can understand why I wrote such a glowing letter to my mom on Mother's Day. From the time I was little, God has always used her to give me pearls at just the right time (whether I recognized them or not).
To be continued...
(Continued from above)
I realize this post is already a million miles long, but with your permission, I'd like to share something else mom had written because it just absolutely touched my soul. Please forgive me and recognize that I'm a child delighting in her mama :)
She wrote:
"I am so disturbed by how hope - the word definition and concept - are being abused."
Then she underlined a part in the study that read, "We think of hope as a positive thought or wish toward something we might obtain. The biblical concept of hope is a positive outlook toward an expected end."
Then mom wrote:
"And I stress unexpected end. I run into people all day long who claim to have hope, but the minute they can't see what's going to happen, there goes their hope and sometimes their faith with it. As I look out on the world through my television, computer, reading, and travel, oh, and relationships, I see all kinds of problems and theories to make anyone believe this world is not worth living in. Yet, if we don't have hope, we can not accomplish what our lives have been created for. So often we hope for outcomes and try to figure out what the result of our hope is going to be, like a painter who tries to tell someone with precision how every detail of a painting is going to appear. Some people have accepted with active hope that relative truth IS God, excluding themselves from the fullness of true wisdom. It's not what might be the best way, but what is the best way. Hope's foundation starts with God's Absolute Truth, but then as individuals we must account for our motivations, ambitions, knowledge, and relationship with God to determine the extent of our hope. Where we place our hope. Money, Confidence, Connections, Laurels, Education, Strengths and Weaknesses: every one of these can be calculated and manipulated. But REAL hope is a concept that is hard to wrap ones' mind around. As mysterious as a virgin birth, where a child faces complete public humiliation, even death threats, and has the baby anyway and is given a place of honor for eternity for the sacrifice. I don't subscribe to relative truth as a way of life nor as a full-time means of a way for determining truth. Because to do this, I would have to deny that hope exists, and that my faith had a shelf life. However, my thoughts and convictions MUST be put into action to serve a greater purpose."
I love my mom!!!!!!!!! <3 <3 <3
Thank you Melissa and Dr. Litfin for this wonderful post. I am so thankful for it!
I love majoring on the majors Melissa!
Keep this coming! We need this!
Beth Schwartz,
Lancaster, PA
Wonderful post here, Dr. Litfin. I am often frustrated by some of my friends that are into a newer church movement that don't believe they need any kind of "doctrine" and roll their eyes when they hear words like "theology." I am just baffled at how open-ended this leaves their faith, with no foundational truths to rest on. I grew up in a church that placed heavy importance on knowing doctrinal issues, which was sometimes hard for me to grasp as a younger child, but now as an adult I appreciate it SO very much. Thank you again, for this post.
By the way, I'm a second-generation Wheatie and we still live up here! I have so appreciated your dad's leadership at the college; my husband now works in the same office with him and very much admires him. I have also met your mom on occasion and she is so sweet. You all are a wonderful family!
Thanks, Melissa, for putting this together. Thanks for challenging us to know our "stuff." :)
I did love this Melissa - but 2 questions have always "plagued me". One, are we to pray to Jesus - or God? Two - is the Holy Spirit Jesus in us? Or Jesus at work in our life? Help!!!!
Wonderful! Bring on more posts like this one and thanks to Dr. Liftin!
Thank you too Melissa for giving us some great meat to chew on!
Esther
I would like your comments on a discussion we had in a Bible study seveal years ago. During the study this elderly Christian lady differentiated between sin and doing wrong.
She believed before you were saved you sinned. After you were saved you still were not perfect but did not sin.
She used 1 John 3:6-9 to support her stance and others used 1 John 2:1,2 to support their stance.We did not reach a meeting of the minds.
I'm sitting on our dock on the most beautiful lake in Oregon. And I am reading the blog. Melissa, this post was awesome, please keep them coming. It would be great to mention a book or two for each topic.
Dr. Leftin you are welcomed in our blog conversations. I am grateful and eager to read your teaching until I can explain your words with my voice... May the LORD be you shield and reward!
Ms. Beth happy birthday a little late. I praise God for you. Please perceive recognize and understand how much we love you as one who has shared Christ and taught me Gods Word is Alive and Active!!!! Happy birthday!
Sincerely,
Kierstan
Don't you find it hard to explain spiritual things and relationships using our feeble human minds and language? God 's Word and His Holy Spirit can help us get a glimps of those beautiful things, "as through a glass darkly", but oh for the day when we see Him face to face!
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